Subject: [TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT] Tools Call Agenda -- 10 April 2018 at 1:00 Eastern

From: Russ Housley <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 12:20:13 -0400

Tools Call Agenda -- 10 April 2018 at 1:00 Eastern

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1. Datatracker Projects
   - Expected Datatracker Releases -- Robert and Henrik
     -- http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/wiki/MergePlan

2. Community & Other Projects
   - Discontinue MonArch email archives -- Robert
     -- Community clearly still likes MonArch speed

3. RFC Services Projects
   - RFC Format Contracts -- Heather and Robert
     -- IDnits
     -- Publication Formatter
     -- Text Submission
     -- RFClint
     -- SVGcheck
     -- XMLdiff

4. Server Infrastructure
   - IESG discussions of DMARC -- Henrik and Alexey
     -- Deployed for volunteer WGs.  Are they happy?

5. Parking Lot
   - Prepare the RFC Production Center code for publication

6. AOB

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From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 22:46:51 +0200

Hi Russ,

Last call, you had a subitem under 4. which I deferred to later, since
both you and Robert were prevented from being present that time.  I think
it would be good to talk about it:

>      -- Mail list system is too fragile.  What can be done?

Best regards,

	Henrik

On 2018-04-04 18:20, Russ Housley wrote:
> _______________________________________________
> TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-development
>

---

From: Russ Housley <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 17:00:46 -0400

Okay.  I'll put it on this agenda too.

Russ

> On Apr 5, 2018, at 4:46 PM, Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> Hi Russ,
>

---

From: "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 10:28:55 -0700

Regrets, but I'm happy to send along the notes from the format meeting 
held during IETF 101. Will do that under a separate cover.

-hf

---

From: Russ Housley <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 13:35:22 -0400

Here is the updated agenda for tomorrow.  It includes the additional item requested by Henrik.

Russ

= = = = = = = =

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1. Datatracker Projects

3. RFC Services Projects

4. Server Infrastructure

5. Parking Lot

6. AOB

---

From: Glen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 11:04:08 -0700

Some pre-discussion for the call tomorrow...

I note this on the agenda:

>      -- Mail list system is too fragile.  What can be done?

A search here:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=tools-development&q=fragile

Yields 12 messages, with only 3 salient results.  The word "fragile"
appeared in 2011...

Tools call - 14 Dec 2011
> 5.  NomCom Tools
> TH: HL was last to touch them for NomCom11. Has proposals that are still
in work.
> RH: tools are fairly fragile?

and in 2014...

Tools call - 11 Dec 2014
> - Agenda Display -- Robert
> There are ongoing problems, related to having fragile code

And the tools-discuss list
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=tools-discuss&q=fragile
only uses the word in the context of a 2006 Apache race condition.

Nonetheless, fragile appeared on last month's agenda with respect to the
mail list system (and the notes indicate nothing was said about it on that
call.)

Tools call - 6 Mar 2018
>     -- Mail list system is too fragile.  What can be done?

Now, I didn't pick the systems, I just run them, so I am absolutely not
taking this personally nor am I emotionally invested in Mailman in any way.

But could someone please point me to any discussions that I must have
missed that indicated that the list system is fragile?  I'd appreciate
background on this.

I think that, despite being open-source software with somewhat random
maintenance release scheduling, our mail list system itself is *far* from
fragile.

We run Postfix into Amavis (including SpamAssassin and ClamAV), into
Henrik's own Postconfirm system, into Mailman.   I myself have operated
this system for us for, well, over 10 years now, more recently with the
assistance of an IT team... and my impression has been that it works
remarkably well.  I can't remember the last time we were "down" (a
rhetorical statement voting confidence in the system overall, and ignoring
teething problems with upgrades, not a request for a date), and it seems to
me that the system "just works".

And since my sleep (literally) depends on the system continuing to "just
work", I am *very* interested in learning about, and correcting, any
fragility.  But I don't think we can answer the question "what can be done"
until we understand "what the problem (if any) is."

All that said, I think that, if there *is* any fragility, it might be
grounded in our rather unique approach to the handling of community
requests.   We tend to take individual community member requests far more
seriously than most other organizations do, and we love to add moving parts
and complexity in order to respond to the requests that come in.
Notwithstanding Henrik's excellent Postconfirm system (which is invisible
to most of you but a huge godsend to me) - if I might quote "Mr. Scott"
from Star Trek [ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2NsTi_43g4 ] :

The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain.

So, speaking only as a vendor, but in this case also the manager of the
team who runs this stuff...

1. Can someone please clarify the fragility?

2. Perhaps one thing that "can be done" would be mindfulness of complexity
as we rush to add new features.

tl;dr Restraint.

Thanks and sorry,
Glen
--
Glen Barney
IT Director
AMS (IETF Secretariat)

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 20:33:12 +0200

Hi Glen,

>>      -- Mail list system is too fragile.  What can be done?

I believe this is simply in response to the issues we had with installation
of the dmarc-workaround, and refers to the complexity of the setup, with
both public and custom tools interconnected in a fairly unique setup.

I'm sure Russ will provide more background.

Best regards,

	Henrik

---

From: Russ Housley <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 14:37:22 -0400

> On Apr 9, 2018, at 2:04 PM, Glen <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> > 4. Server Infrastructure
> >      -- Mail list system is too fragile..  What can be done?
> 
> A search here:  https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=tools-development&q=fragile <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=tools-development&q=fragile>
> 
> Yields 12 messages, with only 3 salient results.  The word "fragile" appeared in 2011...
> 
> Tools call - 14 Dec 2011
> > 5.  NomCom Tools
> > TH: HL was last to touch them for NomCom11. Has proposals that are still in work.  
> And the tools-discuss list  https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=tools-discuss&q=fragile <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=tools-discuss&q=fragile> only uses the word in the context of a 2006 Apache race condition.
> 
> Nonetheless, fragile appeared on last month's agenda with respect to the mail list system (and the notes indicate nothing was said about it on that call.)

The notes say that we should discuss it when more people are able to make the call.  Hopefully that will be tomorrow.

Russ