Subject: [TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT] DRAFT: RFI for fonts

From: "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 12:07:32 +0000

Hello all,

I'm drafting an RFI to collect information on fonts.  Below is my first
cut.  Questions for this group: what's missing?  Should I include any
information on things I already know about (in particular, Google's Noto
font library)?

I don't know if this will turn into an RFP or something else; that's why
I'm doing an RFI.

- -----

Embedded Fonts for the PDF Publication Format for RFCs

Request for Information

Description:

In 2013, the RFC Series Editor announced to the IETF community the
intent to change the format for RFCs from a single, plain-text,
ASCII-only format to a format based on a canonical XML file with
multiple publication formats.  One of those publication formats will be
PDF/A-3 (see <draft-hansen-rfc-use-of-pdf).

One of the requirements for the PDF/A-3 format is that the font
information for any and all fonts used for that document be embedded
within the file.  The purpose here is to make the file as self-contained
and stable as possible.    Requirements for the fonts themselves include:

·      Serif and sans-serif fonts should be available (to meet the
requirement in <draft-hansen-rfc-use-of-pdf> for main text and headings).

·      A fixed-width font must be available for code, BNF, and any other
text that requires such a font as an aid in insuring alignment.     

·      Wide support for Unicode (which may require multiple fonts) is
necessary to support the change that allows non-ASCII characters in
RFCs, such as person names in native languages.

·      Liberal or low-cost license terms.

It is unlikely that license-free or low-cost fonts exist to cover all
these requirements.   This RFI is seeking information on what is
available, where gaps exist such that a font might need to be acquired
with a for-fee license, and where a font might need to be designed.

---

From: Russ Housley <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 14:12:39 -0500

I would not say  "It is unlikely that license-free or low-cost fonts exist to cover all these requirements.   "

It would be great is someone could tell us how to meet these needs.

Russ

On Dec 1, 2014, at 7:07 AM, Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor) wrote:

> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> I'm drafting an RFI to collect information on fonts.  Below is my first cut.  Questions for this group: what's missing?  Should I include any information on things I already know about (in particular, Google's Noto font library)?
> 
> I don't know if this will turn into an RFP or something else; that's why I'm doing an RFI.
> 
> - -----
> 
> In 2013, the RFC Series Editor announced to the IETF community the intent to change the format for RFCs from a single, plain-text, ASCII-only format to a format based on a canonical XML file with multiple publication formats.  One of those publication formats will be PDF/A-3 (see <draft-hansen-rfc-use-of-pdf).
> 
>  
> 
> One of the requirements for the PDF/A-3 format is that the font information for any and all fonts used for that document be embedded within the file.  The purpose here is to make the file as self-contained and stable as possible.    Requirements for the fonts themselves include:
> 
>  
> 
> ·      Serif and sans-serif fonts should be available (to meet the requirement in <draft-hansen-rfc-use-of-pdf> for main text and headings).
> 
> ·      A fixed-width font must be available for code, BNF, and any other text that requires such a font as an aid in insuring alignment.     
> 
> ·      Wide support for Unicode (which may require multiple fonts) is necessary to support the change that allows non-ASCII characters in RFCs, such as person names in native languages.
> 
> It is unlikely that license-free or low-cost fonts exist to cover all these requirements.   This RFI is seeking information on what is available, where gaps exist such that a font might need to be acquired with a for-fee license, and where a font might need to be designed.
> 
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> 
> _______________________________________________
> TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-development

---

From: "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2014 13:17:49 +0000

> exist to cover all these requirements.   "

OK.  Removed.

> It would be great is someone could tell us how to meet these needs.

If you're curious, Martin Dürst has a quick write up on the problem(s) -
http://www.rfc-editor.org/pipermail/rfc-interest/2014-October/008044.html

> I'm drafting an RFI to collect information on fonts.  Below is my
> first cut.  Questions for this group: what's missing?  Should I
> include any information on things I already know about (in
> particular, Google's Noto font library)?
>
> -----
> multiple publication formats.  One of those publication formats will
> be PDF/A-3 (see <draft-hansen-rfc-use-of-pdf).
>
>
>
> within the file.  The purpose here is to make the file as
> self-contained and stable as possible.    Requirements for the fonts
> themselves include:
>
>
>
> ·      A fixed-width font must be available for code, BNF, and any
> other text that requires such a font as an aid in insuring alignment.
>
>
> available, where gaps exist such that a font might need to be
> acquired with a for-fee license, and where a font might need to be
> designed.
>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT
>> mailing list [email-masked]
>> <mailto:[email-masked]>

---

From: "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 09:06:36 -0800

Hello all,

Any further comments?  This is more important than you might think; if
it turns out we cannot find or cannot afford the necessary fonts, that
has an impact on the non-ASCII character draft.  No sense allowing
character sets if we don't have/can't acquire/can't afford legal fonts
for them.

- -Heather

On 12/2/14 5:17 AM, Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor) wrote:
>> I would not say  "It is unlikely that license-free or low-cost
>> fonts exist to cover all these requirements.   "
>
> OK.  Removed.
>
>
>> multiple publication formats.  One of those publication formats
>> will be PDF/A-3 (see <draft-hansen-rfc-use-of-pdf).
>
>
>
>> information for any and all fonts used for that document be
>> embedded within the file.  The purpose here is to make the file as
>> self-contained and stable as possible.    Requirements for the
>> fonts themselves include:
>
>
>
>> ·      Wide support for Unicode (which may require multiple fonts)
>> is necessary to support the change that allows non-ASCII characters
>> in RFCs, such as person names in native languages.
>
>> It is unlikely that license-free or low-cost fonts exist to cover
>> all these requirements.   This RFI is seeking information on what
>> is available, where gaps exist such that a font might need to be
>>> TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT mailing list [email-masked]

---

From: Bob Hinden <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 09:59:44 -0800

Heather,

On Dec 15, 2014, at 9:06 AM, "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Signed PGP part

I think I understand the issue and think getting more information is good.  I have no idea what it would cost to obtain fonts for use in RFCs.  My own experience buying fonts is that they are not very expensive, but that was for individual use.  Not sure how the RFC Editor would be seen.

Has anyone done any research looking at font suppliers to see what the common practice is?  Do we know what we are looking for?  There are, of course, a zillion fonts.

We could even commission a set of RFC fonts :-)

Bob

> -Heather

---

From: "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 10:10:55 -0800

On 12/15/14 9:59 AM, Bob Hinden wrote:
>> Signed PGP part Hello all,
>>
>> Any further comments?  This is more important than you might think;
>> if it turns out we cannot find or cannot afford the necessary
>> fonts, that has an impact on the non-ASCII character draft.  No
>> sense allowing character sets if we don't have/can't acquire/can't
>> afford legal fonts for them.
>
>
> I think I understand the issue and think getting more information is
> good.  I have no idea what it would cost to obtain fonts for use in
> RFCs.  My own experience buying fonts is that they are not very
> expensive, but that was for individual use.  Not sure how the RFC
> Editor would be seen.

Right now, I have all of two data points: one involving the
Google-sponsored font that is Apache-licensed, and another involving a
font explicitly designed for scientific publishing that would cost
$40-50K.  Neither of those two fonts handle Asian scripts or monospaced
fonts.  I'm pretty sure no single font library exists for what we need.

> 
> Has anyone done any research looking at font suppliers to see what
> the common practice is?  Do we know what we are looking for?  There
> are, of course, a zillion fonts.

And that's exactly why I am going the RFI route.  This is a whole
different area of knowledge, and this is one of the nets I'm throwing
out there to start the information collection and sorting process.

> We could even commission a set of RFC fonts :-)

We could.  I wouldn't recommend it if we can avoid it (the bikeshedding,
oh my word, the bikeshedding), but we could.  :-)

- -Heather

---

From: Tony Hansen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 14:08:21 -0500

> We could even commission a set of RFC fonts :-)

And visions of a font extremely similar to Courier strike terror in my 
heart. :-)

     Tony

---

From: "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 07:07:38 -0800

Hello all,

The draft has been updated to include a bit more intro.  Any other
suggestions?

- ----

- - ---

Description:
The RFC Editor provides editing, publishing and archiving services for
the RFC series on behalf of the Internet Engineering Task Force and the
broader Internet community.  The documents published--Internet
standards, best common practices, experimental, and informational
RFCs--need to reflect the expectations of a global community of authors,
implementors, policy makers, academics, and more (see RFC 6949
<http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6949.txt>).

As part of the changes required to meet current expectations, the RFC
Series Editor announced to the IETF community in 2013 the intent to
change the format for RFCs from a single, plain-text, ASCII-only format
to a format based on a canonical XML file with multiple publication
outputs.  Draft documents describing the requirements include:

•  Brownlee, N., "SVG Drawings for RFCs: SVG 1.2 RFC", Work in Progress,
draft-brownlee-svg-rfc-07, July 2014.
•  Flanagan, H., "RFC Format Framework", Work in Progress,
draft-flanagan-rfc-framework-01, September 2014.
•  Flanagan, H., "Requirements for Plain Text RFCs", Work in Progress,
draft-flanagan-plaintext-01, July 2014.
•  Flanagan, H., "The Use of Non-ASCII Characters in RFCs", Work in
Progress, draft-flanagan-nonascii-02, July 2014.
•  Hansen, T., Masinter, L., and M. Hardy, "PDF for an RFC Series Output
Document Format", Work in Progress, draft-hansen-rfc-use-of-pdf-02, July
2014.
•  Hildebrand, J. and H. Flanagan, Ed., "HyperText Markup Language
Request For Comments Format", Work in Progress,
draft-hildebrand-html-rfc-03, June 2014.
•  Hoffman, P., "The 'XML2RFC' version 3 Vocabulary", Work in Progress,
draft-hoffman-xml2rfc-10, September 2014.
•  Reschke, J., "The 'XML2RFC' version 2 Vocabulary", Work in Progress,
draft-reschke-xml2rfc-09, June 2014.
One of those outputs will be PDF/A-3 (see draft-hansen-rfc-use-of-pdf
<http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-hansen-rfc-use-of-pdf-03.txt>).

One particular area of concern for the project is around the question of
what fonts may be used in the PDF/A-3 format.  A requirement for the
PDF/A-3 format is that the font information for any and all fonts used
for that document be embedded within the file.  The purpose here is to
make the file as self-contained and stable as possible.   Given the
combination of needing to embed font information and allowing the use of
non-ASCII characters to meet the expectations of our authors, we have a
challenge with finding the right fonts for our use.,
 
Requirements for the fonts themselves include:

•    Serif and sans-serif fonts should be available (to meet the
requirement in <draft-hansen-rfc-use-of-pdf> for main text and headings).
•    A fixed-width font must be available for code, BNF, and any other
text that requires such a font as an aid in insuring alignment.   
•    Wide support for Unicode (which may require multiple fonts) is
necessary to support the change that allows non-ASCII characters in
RFCs, such as person names in native languages.
•    Liberal or low-cost license terms.

This RFI is seeking information on what is available, where gaps exist
such that a font might need to be acquired with a for-fee license, and
where a font might need to be designed.

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 17:36:54 +0100

Hi Heather,

> The draft has been updated to include a bit more intro.  Any other

Having found a few minutes to think about this, my first thought would
be to suggest the DejaVu font family:

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DejaVu_fonts

It seems to me that it fits the requirements rather well.

If this font family is known and has already been considered and found
either lacking or meritous, it would be nice to add data about that to
the RFI.

Best regards,

	Henrik

> ----
> - ---

---

From: "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 08:48:19 -0800

> either lacking or meritous, it would be nice to add data about that to

I hestitate to put suggestions or requests for information on specific
font families or typefaces in the RFI.  I have some fonts already on my
list to research, including Google's Noto, the Skolar fonts, the DejaVu
fonts, and whatever I can dig into via the Apache-licensed filter on
http://www.fontsquirrel.com/.

The RFI doesn't tie us to anything; it's just a net to see what we get
back and to reasonably target further research efforts.

- -Heather

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 19:21:52 +0100

Hi Heather,

> back and to reasonably target further research efforts.

Ok, good then.  Thanks :-)

Best regards,

	Henrik