Subject: Re: [hackathon] [EXTERNAL] Re: Photo and video policy at Hackathons

From: Lee Howard <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 16:09:07 -0500

On 12/6/17, 2:36 PM, "hackathon on behalf of Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)"
<[email-masked] on behalf of [email-masked]> wrote:

>That’s interesting how Rights Con handled it by inserting it in as a MUST
>into their Code of Conduct.  The equivalent would be the IETF Note Well
>https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well.html as Brian pointed out.

The Hackathon is not the IETF.
I can’t find the Hackathon intro slides, but I believe there’s a nuanced
version of the Note Well. Contributions to code projects are not
necessarily IETF contributions covered by the Note Well. Someone could
write and submit code anonymously on GitHub remotely, so there’s no
particular reason we require a record of who contributed, unless we depend
on that code for some reason.

I therefore think that it’s possible within our legal and policy framework
to run a privacy experiment at the Hackathon, but it would have to be
abundantly clear that there is no expectation that privacy preferences
would be respected at the IETF.

>
>While it could be argued that “it’s a simple experiment to just add this
>policy on a voluntary basis”, that could be seen as possibly backdooring a
>policy change into the IETF without it having been openly discussed as a
>basic policy change for the iETF.

I do think the IETF’s requirement and value for transparency can easily be
in conflict with a preference for privacy or anonymity, and therefore
would have to be carefully and broadly discussed before doing anything at
the IETF.

>
>The proper way would be for a draft I-D to submitted around amending Note
>Well so that it could be considered and discussed.

Lee

>
>-glenn
>
>On 12/6/17, 10:26 AM, "Daniel Kahn Gillmor" <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
>>On Tue 2017-12-05 19:42:28 +0000, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) wrote:
>>> I know the ³don¹t photo me notification² approach is used at other
>>>events
>>> like Rights Con - how do they deal with people not respecting the
>>>request?
>>
>>I reached out to the RightsCon organizers to ask them for more details.
>>Here's what i heard from them:
>>
>>> Here's how we see it, and how we enforce it. Our code of conduct
>>>outlines
>>> that participants must *"Respect the privacy rights of participants
>>>that do
>>> not wish to be photographed or quoted"*
>>> <https://www.rightscon.org/code-of-conduct/>.
>>>
>>> We have a lanyard based privacy system -- people pick up red lanyards
>>>(no
>>> photo) or black lanyards (photo okay) at credential pickup
>>> <https://twitter.com/rightscon/status/846990310995623937>. It was
>>> resoundingly supported and people really loved the idea.
>>>
>>> For our own photographer on site, he was trained to make sure not to
>>>take
>>> photos of folks with red lanyards. For larger group shots where red
>>> lanyards are unavoidable, we literally photoshopped peoples' faces
>>>before
>>> sharing them publicly. We were very clear about our photo policy in
>>>opening
>>> ceremonies, social media, and through signage at the event. The
>>>community
>>> of participants in turn helped enforce the policy.
>>>
>>> I don't know the exact coordination realities of IETF hackathons but
>>>can
>>> say that 1) this has worked for us, 2) it was relatively easy to
>>>implement,
>>> 3) it is vital for us to respect the privacy of attendees that choose
>>>not
>>> to be photographed.
>>
>>Obviously, RightsCon is not the IETF, and their policies are not IETF
>>policies.  However, it sounds like it was an easy mechanism, and people
>>generally understood it and held each other accountable for mutual
>>respect.
>>
>>        --dkg
>
>_______________________________________________
>hackathon mailing list
>[email-masked]
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon

---

From: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 21:15:11 +0000

On 12/6/17, 1:09 PM, "Lee Howard" <[email-masked]> wrote:

>| The Hackathon is not the IETF.

I fully agree that when it started it wasn¹t the IETF, but isn¹t is
essentially part of the IETF now?

While it does have different IPR rules, it is held inside the IEFT event
space, it's list on the agenda, and we extended the start if the IETF
officially a couple meetings ago to be on Saturday - so hasn¹t it evolved
into being part of the IETF but with special IPR rules ?

-glenn

---

From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 21:56:32 +0000

The IETF hackathon operates under the rules of the IETF Note Well. Hackathon participants agree to this during the hackathon registration process and there is a reminder during the hackathon kickoff. The extra bit for the hackathon is as follows:

---
IPR and Code Contribution Guideline

All hackathon participants are free to work on any code. The rules regarding that code are what each participant's organization and/or open source project says they are. The code itself is not an IETF Contribution. However, discussions, presentations, demos, etc., during the hackathon are IETF Contributions (similar to Contributions made in working group meetings). Thus, the usual IETF policies apply to these Contributions, including copyright, license, and IPR disclosure rules.
---

This is in addition to, not instead of, the Note Well. You can access the IETF 100 hackathon kickoff slides here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-100-hackathon-sessa-hackathon-kickoff/

Cheers,
Charles

-----Original Message-----
From: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 1:15 PM
To: Lee Howard <[email-masked]>, Daniel Kahn Gillmor <[email-masked]>, Charles Eckel <[email-masked]>, Eric Rescorla <[email-masked]>
Cc: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [hackathon] [EXTERNAL] Re: Photo and video policy at Hackathons

    

    
    -glenn

---

From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 17:01:37 -0500

> into being part of the IETF but with special IPR rules ?

I agree that the Hackathon is part of the IETF, but the IETF itself is
not uniform.  The NomCom interviews also happen as part of the IETF, and
they have different policies and practices around recording and
publicity than do the WG meetings.  Likewise, BoFs also have different
policies and practices than the Beverage Breaks, and conduct we expect
in the Plenary is different from the conduct we expect in the Newcomers
Tutorial.

Can we dial back this discussion from "how do we fix the whole IETF?" to
"how can we make the hackathon a more welcoming place for people who
prefer not to be photographed?" please?  This discussion is happening on
[email-masked] -- if i came into a WG and asked to boil the ocean
i'd (rightly) get told to stand down. :)

At the moment, there are a handful of concrete proposals on the table
for the hackathon.  Probably the easiest thing to get off the ground is
two-fold:

 A) someone volunteers to bring a clear indicator of preference to not
    be photographed, and makes it available (with a sign explaining it
    that it means "i prefer to not be photographed") at the same place
    where nametags are handed out.

 B) the official photographer for the hackathon gets onboard and tries
    to avoid including people in the photographs who have explicitly
    adopted that marker.

There are no promises that everyone displaying that marker will be
automatically fully excluded from all photography, but well-meaning
people operating in good faith can use it as a guide to their actions.

I'm volunteering to do (A) -- in keeping with the visual precedent
established at RightsCon, i'll bring a stack of red lanyards, and i'll
make a sign explaining what they mean and i'll put it on the tables that
have the nametags, so people can grab them and use them if they want
them.

Charles, or any of the other hackathon organizers -- do you have a
suggestion about how to get started on (B)?  What's the best way to
reach out to the photographer to explain what this symbol means?  In my
experience, if i explicitly tell the photographer that something
shouldn't be photographed (e.g. sensitive content in a preliminary
version of a demo, private e-mails visible on the screen), he has
avoided photographing it.  This is just a convenient way to give him
that indication automatically about a person.

Any thoughts?

    --dkg, grateful for the productive discussion

---

From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:27:39 +0000

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 2:01 PM
To: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" <[email-masked]>, Lee Howard <[email-masked]>, Charles Eckel <[email-masked]>, Eric Rescorla <[email-masked]>
Cc: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [hackathon] [EXTERNAL] Re: Photo and video policy at Hackathons

    

    

    

[cue] I can help with (B). We will be working with the same photographer at the hackathon at IETF 101 as at IETF 100. He has already been honoring peoples’ privacy on a best effort basis. In the past, this was done by explicit request by individuals when asked during the hackathon to identify themselves by raising their hand during the kickoff or more privately at any time during the hackathon. In the future, we can try out whatever is agreed to be a good approach for (A).

Cheers,
Charles

    Any thoughts?

---

From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 17:53:31 -0500

On Wed 2017-12-06 22:27:39 +0000, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) wrote:
> [cue] I can help with (B). We will be working with the same
> photographer at the hackathon at IETF 101 as at IETF 100. He has
> already been honoring peoples’ privacy on a best effort basis. In the
> past, this was done by explicit request by individuals when asked
> during the hackathon to identify themselves by raising their hand
> during the kickoff or more privately at any time during the
> hackathon. In the future, we can try out whatever is agreed to be a
> good approach for (A).

Thanks a lot!  If the photographer has any feedback about what would
make their job easier, i'd be happy to hear from them.

I'll mock up a sign explaining the lanyards to hackathon participants in
the coming weeks, and float it here on-list for feedback.  If the
photographer wants to participate in the discussion (or to propose a
different sign), please let me know.  i'm happy to talk with him
off-list too, if he doesn't do mailing lists :)

     --dkg