Subject: Re: [hackathon] Please redact my picture

From: IETF Journal <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 16:51:47 +0000

Hi Ulrike,

I’ve made that change to the website. Thanks for supplying a substitute image to make this easier.

I’ll ask about updating the pdf.

Please accept my apologies for the discomfort the original image caused.

Regards,
Mat

Mat Ford
Editor, IETF Journal

> On 5 Dec 2017, at 13:38, u <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> I've been sent the link to:
> http://www.ietfjournal.org/running-code-is-king-at-ietf-99-in-prague/
> where I can see my face and read my name tag even if I'd be half blind :)
> 
> I've been very careful in the past to not appear somewhere with my
> picture AND name (at least this picture is not text searchable!) You can
> use this photo, but I'd like you to redact the name tag on this picture.
> 
> I actually already did that to make your life easier, and uploaded the
> file here:
> https://451f.org/IETF-Hackathon-woman-July-2017-Prague-031.jpg. Please
> exchange the picture as soon as possible with the one where my name is
> readable on the tag.
> 
> I know that the picture is also in the PDF of the journal, but in there
> it's at least a little bit smaller, so don't bother redacting this too -
> unless you want to offer me a present for Christmas.
> 
> Thank you for your attention,
> Ulrike
>

---

From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 12:07:04 -0500

Hi Charles and IETF hackathon team--

i guess you saw this note:

> use this photo, but I'd like you to redact the name tag on this picture.

I'm wondering what we can do for future hackathons to make them more
welcoming to people who would rather not appear in photographs.  There
is generally a wandering photographer, which is great for documenting
the energy and spirit of the hackathon, and i think seeing the photos
has made the event more appealing, helped to document its impact, and
have encouraged further participation, which is great.

But it'd be a shame if the presence of the photographer actually
discourages some people from participating, too.

Maybe we could offer participants a way that they could simply identify
themselves as being "ok for photos", or "not ok for photos", and ask the
photographer to respect the expressed preference?

Some ideas i've seen at other conferences aimed at respecting
participants' privacy preferences:

 * stickers on nametags that say "no photos please" -- a camera with a
   circle with a slash through it is a common visual, but a simple
   large, visible, colored dot (with a clear legend at the nametag table
   explaining what the color means) is also probably fine.

 * different-colored lanyards for people who would prefer to not appear
   in photographs (again, with a clear legend).  lanyards are nice
   because they're visible from all sides -- you don't have to see the
   nametag to tell the person's preference.

 * a box full of buttons (with a picture of a camera with a circle with
   a slash through it), which people can pick up next to the nametags.

I think i've seen the same photographer at multiple hackathons -- is
that right, that it's a steady gig?  if so, i'd be happy to involve the
photgrapher in this discussion to find out what kind of
markings/expression they think would make it easier for them to do their
job while respecting these preferences.

Let me know what you think makes sense as a next step!  And thanks for
your ongoing work in organizing the hackathon. It continues to be one of
the best parts of the IETF.

All the best,

    --dkg

---

From: Eric Rescorla <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 09:08:58 -0800

I want to second this. In fact, I think this would be good for the IETF as
a whole.
Obviously, people consent to being video recorded, but that doesn't mean
they
want to be still photographed, which is different.

Different colored badges seem the easiest.

-Ekr

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Daniel Kahn Gillmor <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> _______________________________________________
> hackathon mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon
>
>

---

From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 17:35:52 +0000

We do ask at the kickoff of each hackathon if anyone prefers to NOT be photographed. Admittedly, this one attempt to identify people misses anyone who is not present at that time. I also agree with Ekr that while this instance is in regard to the hackathon, the problem and solution should extend beyond the hackathon weekend and room and apply to the IETF as a whole.

We have never had actually badges for hackathon attendees; rather, stickers have been made available for people to write their name to attach to their person. There has been talk of moving to actual badges, and we could probably make that happen for the IETF 101 hackathon. If so, we can leverage whatever is put in place for IETF as a whole. Different colored badges seems a good option to me.

Cheers,
Charles

From: Eric Rescorla <[email-masked]>
Date: Tuesday, December 5, 2017 at 9:09 AM
To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor <[email-masked]>
Cc: Charles Eckel <[email-masked]>, u <[email-masked]>, "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [hackathon] Please redact my picture

I want to second this. In fact, I think this would be good for the IETF as a whole.
Obviously, people consent to being video recorded, but that doesn't mean they
want to be still photographed, which is different.

-Ekr

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Daniel Kahn Gillmor <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
Hi Charles and IETF hackathon team--

All the best,

    --dkg

_______________________________________________
hackathon mailing list
[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon

---

From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 13:27:55 -0500

On Tue 2017-12-05 17:35:52 +0000, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) wrote:
> We do ask at the kickoff of each hackathon if anyone prefers to NOT be
> photographed. Admittedly, this one attempt to identify people misses
> anyone who is not present at that time. I also agree with Ekr that
> while this instance is in regard to the hackathon, the problem and
> solution should extend beyond the hackathon weekend and room and apply
> to the IETF as a whole.

Getting buy-in for the IETF as a whole sounds like a large undertaking.
if we can do it, that'd be great!

But we could also model a successful strategy at the hackathon first,
without blocking on the rest of the IETF, and inform the greater IETF of
the result of our experiment.

> We have never had actually badges for hackathon attendees; rather,
> stickers have been made available for people to write their name to
> attach to their person.

right, i think the "colored dot" proposal fits best with the hackathon's
traditional nametag approach.  I'm happy to foot the bill for a few
sheets of stickers for hackathon 101.

We should probably choose a color that doesn't collide with anything in
[0].  Maybe a black dot, if that doesn't seem too somber to people? [1]

[0] https://www.ietf.org/tao.html#rfc.section.3.6
[1] https://www.staples.com/Avery-Removable-Self-Adhesive-Color-Coding-Round-Labels-28-Labels-Per-Sheet-Black-3-4-Diameter-1-000-Labels-Pk/product_537928

> There has been talk of moving to actual badges, and we could probably
> make that happen for the IETF 101 hackathon. If so, we can leverage
> whatever is put in place for IETF as a whole. Different colored badges
> seems a good option to me.

Again, i'd be happy to not block on bigger changes, but if the bigger
changes happen we should definitely piggyback on them.

Also, at IETF 100, i didn't get my smileyface logo on my badge, despite
ticking the correct box during registration.  i had to draw it on
myself, so i'm not convinced that banking on the IETF badge process
reflecting people's preferences is the way to go.  finally, there are
people at the hackathon who do not attend the rest of the IETF.  will
those people have badges?

      --dkg

---

From: Donald Eastlake <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 13:46:59 -0500

The smiley stickers were on the table at registration. You had to
stick one on yourself.

The IETF meeting is a public open meeting. I am opposed to photography
/ audio recording / videoing restrictions there.

However, the Hackathon is a different thing, witness, for example, its
different IPR rules. So, while I have some doubts, I don't oppose
trying out photography/recording restrictions at the Hackathon.

Thanks,
Donald
===============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 [email-masked]

---

From: Lucas Pardue <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 19:08:18 +0000

Some great points being made. To highlight a few:

* Respect: I think dhk's point about respectful photographers is a good one. Rather than think of restricting them, it could be empowering to identify in post-production that certain images are not quite appropriate. 
* name/face correlation: I think the conversation may have evolved off the original issue. I don't mind having my photo taken but I would rather not have an in-band identifier (captions also count IMO). It would be great if there were a badge holder that was visible to the naked eye yet opaque to camera, for those in this bracket. Do such things exist? (Polarizing insert plus opposite polarizing lens filter perhaps? :))
* default no-correlation policy in certain arenas. Inform attendees that %PROPORTION% of people prefer not to be so easily and permenantly identifiable outside the room/event. Please avoid such photos or inform people that they may be leaking inadvertently. (E.g. I occasionally see colleagues  wearing a work ID badge on public transport, a little reminder generally leads to a hasty removal).

Lucas
________________________________________
From: hackathon [[email-masked]] on behalf of Donald Eastlake [[email-masked]]
Sent: 05 December 2017 18:46
To: Daniel Kahn Gillmor; [email-masked]
Cc: Eric Rescorla; Charles Eckel (eckelcu); u
Subject: Re: [hackathon] Please redact my picture

Thanks,
Donald

---

From: William Atwood <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 14:10:17 -0500

Having read this and the next several posts, I am struck by the fact
that Ulrike asked that her name not be visible with her photo, and this
has escalated to "people should be able to ask not to be photographed".
These are two different things, or, if you wish, two different levels of
desired privacy.

  Bill

-- 

Dr. J.W. Atwood, Eng.             tel:   +1 (514) 848-2424 x3046
Distinguished Professor Emeritus  fax:   +1 (514) 848-2830
Department of Computer Science
   and Software Engineering
Concordia University EV 3.185     email:[email-masked]
1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd. West    http://users.encs.concordia.ca/~bill
Montreal, Quebec Canada H3G 1M8

---

From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 15:56:01 -0500

On Tue 2017-12-05 14:10:17 -0500, William Atwood wrote:

> name not be visible with her photo, and this has escalated to "people
> should be able to ask not to be photographed".  These are two
> different things, or, if you wish, two different levels of desired
> privacy.

I know more than one person who prefers not to be photographed at all,
who would be excellent to have at the IETF hackathon.  The current
policy, with aggressive pervasive photography makes the space
unwelcoming to those people.  The original request here reminded me of
this fact, and i thought i'd see whether we can improve the situation
for the simplest case.

There are surely many different variations of desired privacy (it's not
even a linear scale), but if we're talking about being able to simply
state a preference that can be clearly understood by other parties,
finer levels of nuance probably aren't the way to go.

      --dkg