Subject: Re: [Enum] IETF, ENUM and NGN

From: Mike Hammer <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 15:52:39 -0400

Lawrence,
Do I understand correctly that ENUM points to your sip: address, and that 
the DNS holds records to go from sip address to IP address to make the 
connection to your SIP proxy?

I would anticipate also the possibility that the domain name of your SIP 
address could be provided by either a residential SP or your company acting 
as SP.  I assume that you are also getting the IP address from your local 
ISP serving your home, although I'm a bit fuzzy on what type of local 
access you might be using to  connect to the ISP (modem, DSL, cable?).

Note that I consider enterprises/companies as service providers, though not 
publicly regulated ones.  And while they could also make use of ENUM, they 
might question the value versus risk of putting their company directory 
into the public domain.  I suspect that they would want to keep that 
information internal and only selectively release such 
information.  However, the before-mentioned suggestion to provide a SIP 
proxy domain such that SIP messages to sip:<e.164number>@company.com that 
can use an internal database to translate to user-specific sip address can 
be used.

When presence becomes more widely deployed, ENUM could point to the 
presence address for subscriptions.  Then presence information could 
provide the remaining information that would otherwise be publicly posted 
in ENUM.

Mike
At 11:27 PM 7/7/2004 +0100, Conroy, Lawrence (SMTP) wrote:
Hi Mike, folks,
  Is this 90% valid?
My IAD (Intertex IX66) at home is a SIP proxy - it's just easier to do 
this than play around trying to get SIP-unaware Router/Firewall/NAT boxes 
to work (particularly if they assume I'm using a Pissy and Windoze to 
configure things). Thus I don't fall into the 90% - I have better things 
to do with my time.

I contend that there is a business case for Corporates to make ENUM 
registrations for their number ranges. I'm not completely convinced about 
residential customers, but for Corporates, it's a "slam dunk". These will 
almost certainly be running SIP proxies (at least your company and mine 
hope so :).

Thus, whilst you may be right on the total population of PSTN telephone 
service subscribers, I'm not sure this is the case for the population of 
"user" ENUM subscribers.

all the best,
  Lawrence
On 7 Jul 2004, at 17:23, Mike Hammer wrote:
Richard,
OK, let me back up one step.  My comment was oriented to the simplest 
case, where 90% of the user population would not likely run their own SIP 
proxies and act as service providers for themselves, nor possibly add in 
additional SPs.  My point was more toward the idea that when they "port" 
the number to a different SP, chances are the target address of a SIP 
proxy supporting that user would be different.
<snip>
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From: "Conroy, Lawrence (SMTP)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 22:13:22 -0400

Hi Mike, folks,
 I'm slightly at a loss here. I fear that we will just have to disagree 
on this one.

You seem to be asking if I have a E2U+sip entry. The answer to that is 
"some of the time, yes".

You then ask what kind of access I have. The domain of the SIP address 
is mine; I registered it.
As it happens, the domain of the domainpart of the SIP AoRs "at work" 
was also registered by me.
The IP address range I have at home was assigned via my DSL Internet 
Access Provider. My company's
IAP also arranged for the IP range used by my company. I have to ask, 
"this is pertinent because...?".

I must disagree over your definition of an Enterprise as a Service 
Provider.
An Enterprise can register ENUM domains for the E.164 numbers via which 
it is
provided Communications Service by a 3rd party CSP.
It is the end user assignee for these E.164 numbers, and so a 
->potential<- ENUM Registrant.
The CSP is not the end user, and so (on this side of the pond) cannot 
register ENUM domains
for those E.164 numbers.

Once registered, if I (or my company) choose to put anything I/they 
want into my/their ENUM
domains, then (as I/they are paying to have it published) that's 
my/their choice.
Given that any reasonable DNS server handles "split horizon", what you 
see may well not be
what I see. Again, that's my/their choice.
Whether or not my company allows IP calls from teleworkers or Extranet 
partners is also our
choice. Other registrants can make different choices in their domains - 
I'm not stopping them
and they're not stopping me.

Equally, if an Enterprise chooses not to register in ENUM, that's also 
their choice.

Finally, if and when caller/callee prefs and the rest of the 
infrastructure is standardised
and in place to give all of the UCI/PUA features, then one could have a 
single entry in ENUM
pointing to that PUA. However, for some time, there will be SIP systems 
(or H.323, just to be
non-denominational) that do not provide full PUA functionality, and for 
the foreseeable future
(i.e. in the interim) just using ENUM (and standard DNS) alone works 
for me.
I don't need anything more complex.

My point is just that I believe that it will work for more than 10% of 
the Registrant population.

all the best,
  Lawrence
On 8 Jul 2004, at 16:51, Mike Hammer wrote:
Lawrence,
Do I understand correctly that ENUM points to your sip: address, and 
that the DNS holds records to go from sip address to IP address to 
make the connection to your SIP proxy?

I would anticipate also the possibility that the domain name of your 
SIP address could be provided by either a residential SP or your 
company acting as SP.  I assume that you are also getting the IP 
address from your local ISP serving your home, although I'm a bit 
fuzzy on what type of local access you might be using to  connect to 
the ISP (modem, DSL, cable?).

Note that I consider enterprises/companies as service providers, 
though not publicly regulated ones.  And while they could also make 
use of ENUM, they might question the value versus risk of putting 
their company directory into the public domain.  I suspect that they 
would want to keep that information internal and only selectively 
release such information.  However, the before-mentioned suggestion to 
provide a SIP proxy domain such that SIP messages to 
sip:<e.164number>@company.com that can use an internal database to 
translate to user-specific sip address can be used.

When presence becomes more widely deployed, ENUM could point to the 
presence address for subscriptions.  Then presence information could 
provide the remaining information that would otherwise be publicly 
posted in ENUM.

Mike
At 11:27 PM 7/7/2004 +0100, Conroy, Lawrence (SMTP) wrote:
Hi Mike, folks,
  Is this 90% valid?
<snip>
Thus, whilst you may be right on the total population of PSTN 
telephone service subscribers, I'm not sure this is the case for the 
population of "user" ENUM subscribers.
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---

From: Mike Hammer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:25:18 -0400

Lawrence,
I don't think what you and I are saying is that much at odds.
My comment about the 90% was that the general population (not the technical 
saavy) will follow the conventions of their residential service provider or 
employer company providing the access network, the IP addresses, the SIP or 
H.323 addresses, and the database entries to make it all work.  This does 
not mean that there can not be other configurations that also work as you 
point out.  But, the majority of people don't have the time, interest, or 
background to go figure it all out.

I mentioned the access provider and the IP addresses only to complete the 
picture.  There is a series of things that must be in place before the 
system works.  If I put a private non-routable IP address from the LAN in 
my house in an ENUM record, I won't get an incoming call.

As for whether a company is a service provider, if they give me a network 
connection, an IP address, a SIP address, and route packets to my laptop, 
and terminate calls to my VoIP phone ...  there is a saying on this side of 
the pond:  If it waddles like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a 
duck, and looks like a duck, it's a duck.

Mike
At 01:14 AM 7/9/2004 +0100, Conroy, Lawrence (SMTP) wrote:
Hi Mike, folks,
 I'm slightly at a loss here. I fear that we will just have to disagree 
on this one.

You then ask what kind of access I have. The domain of the SIP address is 
mine; I registered it.
As it happens, the domain of the domainpart of the SIP AoRs "at work" was 
also registered by me.
The IP address range I have at home was assigned via my DSL Internet 
Access Provider. My company's
IAP also arranged for the IP range used by my company. I have to ask, 
"this is pertinent because...?".

I must disagree over your definition of an Enterprise as a Service Provider.
An Enterprise can register ENUM domains for the E.164 numbers via which it is
provided Communications Service by a 3rd party CSP.
It is the end user assignee for these E.164 numbers, and so a 
->potential<- ENUM Registrant.
The CSP is not the end user, and so (on this side of the pond) cannot 
register ENUM domains
for those E.164 numbers.

Once registered, if I (or my company) choose to put anything I/they want 
into my/their ENUM
domains, then (as I/they are paying to have it published) that's my/their 
choice.
Given that any reasonable DNS server handles "split horizon", what you see 
may well not be
what I see. Again, that's my/their choice.
Whether or not my company allows IP calls from teleworkers or Extranet 
partners is also our
choice. Other registrants can make different choices in their domains - 
I'm not stopping them
and they're not stopping me.

(i.e. in the interim) just using ENUM (and standard DNS) alone works for me.

My point is just that I believe that it will work for more than 10% of the 
Registrant population.

all the best,
  Lawrence

I would anticipate also the possibility that the domain name of your SIP 
address could be provided by either a residential SP or your company 
acting as SP.  I assume that you are also getting the IP address from 
your local ISP serving your home, although I'm a bit fuzzy on what type 
of local access you might be using to  connect to the ISP (modem, DSL, cable?).

Note that I consider enterprises/companies as service providers, though 
not publicly regulated ones.  And while they could also make use of ENUM, 
they might question the value versus risk of putting their company 
directory into the public domain.  I suspect that they would want to keep 
that information internal and only selectively release such 
information.  However, the before-mentioned suggestion to provide a SIP 
proxy domain such that SIP messages to sip:<e.164number>@company.com that 
can use an internal database to translate to user-specific sip address 
can be used.

Mike

---

From: James Seng <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:06:16 -0400

I been watching this discussion with a little bit of interest. Seem like 
there is a disagreement but really, it is just a unsync discussion, 
where one is talking about User ENUM and another Infrastructure/Carrier 
ENUM.

This is why we should probably get at least the definition nails down 
before the next IETF so we can have a more productive mini-BoF on 
infrastructure carrier ENUM. (User ENUM issues as I understand will be 
discussed in the session before).

Speaking of the mini-BoF, for those who has interest to speak, please 
send an email to Richard Stastny and myself. Ideally, you should already 
have an I-D. Please do so by next week so we can arrange the agenda.

We are also looking for a volunteer for scribes (two preferably).
ps: So far on the agenda, we have something from Patrick/Richard giving 
problem statement, Stastny will give a background and Penn/Steve already 
indicated they have something to contribute.

-James Seng
Mike Hammer wrote:
Lawrence,
I don't think what you and I are saying is that much at odds.
My comment about the 90% was that the general population (not the 
technical saavy) will follow the conventions of their residential 
service provider or employer company providing the access network, the 
IP addresses, the SIP or H.323 addresses, and the database entries to 
make it all work.  This does not mean that there can not be other 
configurations that also work as you point out.  But, the majority of 
people don't have the time, interest, or background to go figure it all 
out.

I mentioned the access provider and the IP addresses only to complete 
the picture.  There is a series of things that must be in place before 
the system works.  If I put a private non-routable IP address from the 
LAN in my house in an ENUM record, I won't get an incoming call.

As for whether a company is a service provider, if they give me a 
network connection, an IP address, a SIP address, and route packets to 
my laptop, and terminate calls to my VoIP phone ...  there is a saying 
on this side of the pond:  If it waddles like a duck, swims like a duck, 
quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's a duck.

Mike
At 01:14 AM 7/9/2004 +0100, Conroy, Lawrence (SMTP) wrote:
Hi Mike, folks,
 I'm slightly at a loss here. I fear that we will just have to 
disagree on this one.

An Enterprise can register ENUM domains for the E.164 numbers via 
which it is

choice. Other registrants can make different choices in their domains 
- I'm not stopping them

Finally, if and when caller/callee prefs and the rest of the 
infrastructure is standardised
and in place to give all of the UCI/PUA features, then one could have 
a single entry in ENUM
pointing to that PUA. However, for some time, there will be SIP 
systems (or H.323, just to be
non-denominational) that do not provide full PUA functionality, and 
for the foreseeable future
(i.e. in the interim) just using ENUM (and standard DNS) alone works 
for me.
I don't need anything more complex.

all the best,
  Lawrence

Note that I consider enterprises/companies as service providers, 
though not publicly regulated ones.  And while they could also make 
use of ENUM, they might question the value versus risk of putting 
their company directory into the public domain.  I suspect that they 
would want to keep that information internal and only selectively 
release such information.  However, the before-mentioned suggestion 
to provide a SIP proxy domain such that SIP messages to 
sip:<e.164number>@company.com that can use an internal database to 
translate to user-specific sip address can be used.

Mike

permission. This communication is for information only and shall not 
create or

---

From: Richard Shockey <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:07:23 -0400

At 10:00 AM 7/10/2004, James Seng wrote:
I been watching this discussion with a little bit of interest. Seem like 
there is a disagreement but really, it is just a unsync discussion, where 
one is talking about User ENUM and another Infrastructure/Carrier ENUM.

Speaking of the mini-BoF, for those who has interest to speak, please send 
an email to Richard Stastny and myself. Ideally, you should already have 
an I-D. Please do so by next week so we can arrange the agenda.

Thank you .. let me second James's note here to the entire list.

problem statement,

Very quick statement ..
Stastny will give a background and Penn/Steve already indicated they have 
something to contribute.

-James Seng
Mike Hammer wrote:

Richard Shockey, Senior Manager, Strategic Technology Initiatives
NeuStar Inc.
46000 Center Oak Plaza  -   Sterling, VA  20166
sip:rshockey(at)iptel.org   sip:57141 at fwd.pulver.com
ENUM +87810-13313-31331
PSTN Office +1 571.434.5651 PSTN Mobile: +1 703.593.2683,  Fax: +1 815.333.1237
<mailto:richard(at)shockey.us> or <mailto:richard.shockey(at)neustar.biz>
<http://www.neustar.biz> ; <http://www.enum.org>
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---

From: James Seng <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:48:24 -0400

-James Seng
Mike Hammer wrote: